Defend or refute this statement by describing and determining the relative importance of the economic, political, and religious causes of the Protestant Reformation. After answering the question completely please respond to two of your classmates once they have posted. When writing your responses please refer (bold or underline) to the screenname of the student that you are responding too. Do not write elementary responses to your classmates. (Video is below you only have to watch about the firts 14-15 minutes)
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/frey.protestant.ethic (Max Weber's Thesis on Protestant Ethics)
http://wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/LUTHER.HTM(Martin Luther Bio.)
26 comments:
Although the Protestant Reformation was known as "primarily an economic event," I do not agree with this, as it has more political and religious issues that caused the spark. The Protestant Reformation mainly relates to political, and religious causes with very few of those economic. The importance of the political causes that impacted the Protestant Reformation was the power of the Pope. Martin Luther was a significant figure in this Reformation and he did not agree with the Pope and how he was using his power, with issues of indulgence sales. Luther had no faith in the Pope, but believed in the Bible alone and even studied it carefully to prove the Pope wrong. There are also important religious causes, Luther accepted that Religion should be ethical and appropriate without the wrong reasons. Therefore, he did not side with making money by the selling of indulgences and wanted to take action for it. This leads to few of the economic causes of the Protestant Reformation, selling of indulgences. In the Protestant Reformation, the economy made money by selling idulgences. The indulgences leaded to disagreement by Martin Luther and Martin Luther caused others to be aware by addressing political and religious issues. All in all, I do not support the fact that the Protestant Reformation "was primarly an economic event" though it leaned more toward political and religious causes.
One may believe the Protestant Reformation was primarily an economic event. This could due to the political, economic, and religious causes. Political causes were started by the pope who was controlling the church and completey changing the conventional religious ideas for the better of the church. Economically, the Catholic Church starting the selling of indulgences and used guilt inflicting and purgatory threats to make lucrative endeavors into constructing a Basilica. And finally, religiously, the famous revolutionary monk Martin Luther kept to his religious beliefs and emphasized wrong doings on the level of change of Catholic ideals and attempted to translate the Bible to allows Germans a means o understanding the true Word of God. So overall, the Protestant Reformation may have been primarily economically stimulated, but the other causes were simply road pieces that paved the way to that point.
The protestant reformation was primarily an economic event because the entire idea of reforming the church started with the validity of the sale of indulgences. Indulgences were purely for economic gain when it came to the catholic church. And because of this people like Martin Luther and others beganspeaking out of the corruptions and abuses of the church.
Please be sure to follow the directions and write at minimum two paragraphs and answer the question completley. So far 2 of our 3 respondents have written pretty detailed answers. Lets see if others keep this up. Remember to respond to your classmates with specific arguments of why you agree or disagree. Good Luck!!!! Let the blogging begin!!!!!
Even though the Protestant reformation is said to have had the biggest impact on economics, one may argue that the biggest impact was on politics, and even more so on the religious aspects of Europeans. First, the politics were majorly affected. During the protestant reformation the church was playing a bigger role, not the king. However, many people were disagreeing with the pope and his hypocritical actions. He was adjusting to the church to be what best fit the lives of the people. As a result Luther posted the 95 theses to go against the power of the pope. Finally there was the religious affects. The Protestant Reformation was centered around religion. More religion choices were being opened such as Anabaptism and Lutheranism. Luther stressed that one should follow the bible literally, not adjust it to best fit your life. One did not have to stick to the beliefs of the church anymore, there were options opened focused around religion.
AKILAHRA- You made a good point saying that Luther went against indulgences. You showed that the economics did play a part, but not a big one, and that still supported your thesis.
JORDDAN ALEXIS- Your thesis says that economics were a major part, what everyone has gone against so far, and you backed it up with the sale of indulgences being a major spark. Nice point, all I would suggest is giving points to show that the religion and politics weren’t a very big part of the Protestant Reformation, to support your thesis.
jordan alexis's succinct comment pretty much is what I agree on. The sale of indulgences were a stimulation of Martin Luther's nerves. He finally said, "Yo, this needs to stop and the economic gain was what was encouraging the popes and priests to go against the bible's principles.
Remember when commenting about on of your classmates post you need to be clear of who you are responding to and to give evidence that supports your claim. Also be sure to address all aspects of the question. Feel free to continue the discussion even after someone has responded to your comments.
For additional assistance on understanding some other views that are associated with the question being addressed you may want to read the following:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/WEBER/WeberCH2.html
Max Weber’s spirit of capitalism
lecture on social progress under the guidance of Protestants.
As many say the Protestant Reformation is known to be a large economic event, although I do not agree it seems to me that there were more political and religious issues. Martin Luther knew that the pope was doing wrong things in the church, like the selling of indulgences. The church made lots of money with the indulgences and spent most of it for their pleasure. Martin Luther disagreed with this greatly and wanted everyone to know what the church was doing so he posted his 95 theses. He didn’t want to form a new religion but more so make people focus on the bible and the whole point of church to learn about God and catholic ways. Since people started paying more attention to the bible they kind of were taking chunks of it and turning it into a new religion but that is not what Luther wanted. Luther did prove the pope wrong though and made everyone realize that the pope practically just wanted money.
Akilah
I liked how you supported your choice with many examples and details. It was easy to understand. You also talked about the economy even though you disagreed with it.
Kimarmendariz
You used many details and examples also. I liked how you mentioned the 95 theses and some of the new religions. Also you talked about how Luther make the church the best to fit with the peoples lives.
The Protestant Reformation had many parts to it including an economic, but I believe that is was not primary part. The Reformation had many religious and political parts to it. Martin Luther was a very religious man and he simply started his campaign against the church with protesting the selling of indulgences.His simple protest became a major part of the Reformation because it showed all the corruption in the church.Then from this people began to question their Catholic faith and began to believe the faith of other religions.The political part was that when people began to question the Catholic faith, they began to question the leader of that faith, the pope. The pope was selling indulgences to make money so that they can build a new church. Instead of the pope using his own money, which he had a lot of, he used the money from people that thought they were buying basically a free passage to heaven.There was definitely an economic part to the Protestant reformation but the primary parts, i believe, are the religious and political ones.
Akilahra
- I like that you were able to back up your thesis with details. It proved your thesis and showed how the Protestant Reformation had an impact on other parts of life.
Jordan Alexis
- You were very straight to the point and you got your point across. Maybe just add some more details about the economic impact next time.
In Response to JORDAN ALEXIS...I disagree with your statement that the protestant reformation was an economic event, though economics did have a major role in causing the Protestant Reformation, it was not an economic event, but primarily political and religious. This is because Church authority such as the pope was involved. Also it was a religious event because Luther had questioned if the sale of indulgences was religiously ethical.
In Response to KIMARMENDARIZ...I agree with your statement that the protestant reform had bigger impacts on the Political and Religious aspects. You mentioned that Luther posted the 95 theses which was a great support, which I agree with in the case of the protestant reform being political. I also agree with, the fact that Luther wanting the Bible to be interpreted literally, which was also a large religious factor in the Protestant Reformation.
In response to KIMARMENDARIZ, I think that politics didn't really spark the Protestant Revolution because I believe it was primarily economic and was based more on the morals of the church and how they were using people's sins as ways to recieve revenue for themselves. Martin Luther, who read the bible front to back, knew that this was not right so he started to revolt against the church by posting his 95 theses. Catch what I'm throwing?
One may think that the Protestant Reformation was just known as a primarily "economic" event. I, however don't total believe this. I believe that people think this because of the political and religious event that first led up to this reformation. During the Protestant Reformation ALL of the power of the church resided in the pope. The pope dealt with sins of the people and handled the church in a more than WEIRD way. Martin Luther did not like the way he was handling things and started to question and judge the church on the way he thought things of the church ought to be handled. Martin Luther also disliked how the pope and church officials dealt with indulgences. They told people that if they gave the church some money that they would be free of all their sins. Hence "the sale of indulgences" . The people believed this and paid more and more which made the church wealthier. Luther did not like this and had no faith in the pope what so ever. Luther, so, did not follow by the church’s “new” rules and decided to go by the “old” ones. The sale of indulgences lead to the “economical” views of the Protestant Reformation. I don’t believe that the Protestant Reformation was a major “economical” event however it was a part of it due to the religious and political ideals before this time.
Akilahra- I agree with you because you made a lot of the same points I did that were more detailed and specific especially toward Luther’s views toward the churches ideas.
Jordan Alexis- Although you chose a different view for your thesis than me, you made a clear understanding that the sale of indulgences was the major reason toward the economical gain with the church. It’s very understandable, but you didn’t point out WHAT lead to the sale of indulgences.
the protestant reformation was considered an economic event, i don't agree with this statement because i would consider it so much more. it still had an economic effect but also a political, and had started questioning the authority.
the authority had been questioned. the people were becoming more educated, they started to wonder if what the popes were saying was religiously right or if they were just trying to benefit themselves.
politically this had started rebellion because the people saw that their kings were going against the church, so some may start to began going against their leaders. thinking it was going to be ok since they saw it within their own leaders.
which meant this lead to economically when some of the leasders and kings had left the church then it took money from the church. the church had lost a great deal of money. but for the people that had left their income had increased.
Luther had said that in the 95 thesis it was wrong for people to buy their forgiveness. and i think that made alot of people convert and follow him. one thing is that people started to notice the changes with in the church. they weren't all the way trustworthy they were just trying to get more money for the glory and power.
so yes i think that the protestant reformation was an ecomoic event but it also had a politcal and questioning event.
Although there many reasons for the protestant reformation, i do noy believe that the reasons for its begining had to do with political reasons. i do believe that Luther wanted to correct the church, not gain controle. and never did luther try to lead in anything un- biblical. however after luther, otives may have changed.
AKILAH said something that i agreed with, i do agree that economics may have played a role, but a very small one however. i do not agree with KIM, the protestant reformation had to do gretly with the coruption of the church that includes the poitical power, selling of indulgencess, having children out of wedlock, and by inturpeting the bible the way that suited the church best. not soley the conflicting powe between pope and king.
in response to cherries:
i agree with you because it wasn't all about the economy. there was a big part dealing with the economy such as the selling of indulgences like you stated. but one thing you said was that he attempted to translate the bible. but i thought that he did translate the bible in vernacular?
in response to jordan alexis:
i would like to disagree because the reformation didn't all have to deal with the economy. there was alot more to the event, such as the politcal conflict between kings and popes. but there was still an economic effect. there was just more to it. wouldn't you think?
The Protestant Reformation was not primarily an economic event. Theologians such as John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and Martin Luther did not advocate the protestant reformation for economic gain. The Protestant Reformation was primarily a religious and political event. Calvin preached predestination and sought to control Geneva as a theocracy. Zwingli and his followers destroyed art and decorations in the church. He died in battle fighting Catholics. Luther set out to reform the Catholic Church. Several German states excepted Lutheranism as there religion. All three of these theologians made an impact on religion and politics of their given area but not neccesarily economics. On the other hand, Henry VIII closed monasteries and confiscated church property. He also became the head of the church in England. Parliaments Act of Supremecy proved to be very lucrative for England. Keep in mind that this is merely one aspect of the Protestant Reformation.
In response to jordan Alexis: Keep in mind that there were other figures involved in the Protestant Reformation who had beliefs that were different than that of Martin Luther and the Roman Catholic Church. We know this because the manner in which some of these new Protestant churches were conducted far more extreme than the teachings of Martin Luther. For example Ulrich Zwingli and his followers smashed organs, art, and decoration in churches.
Although the Protestant Reformation may have had an impact on the economy, i disagree wth the statemant that The Protestant Reformation "was primarily an economic event." There might have been economic causes that contributed to creating the Protestant Reformation, but it all started with the political and religious power of the pope. For centuries, the Catholic Church in Europe ruled uninterrupted until the changes in this very church became so drastic, the people couldn't just stand back and watch anymore. Having the pope be more powerful than even kings and queens, and praised second to God himself, popes began to realize how they could possibly get away with anything. Though, why after centuries of ruling do the changes come so abruptly there? Well for one thing, people could now buy their way into power instead of inheritng it with all the right backgrounds and state of mind. With uneducated political and religious powers up on these posts, they weren't as religiously based as before. They now just be out for themselves. This led to popes abusing their power which led to the people responding against these "new" church ways. Here is where the reformation leaders come in.
Perhaps one of the biggest impacts came from a monk named Martin Luther. At first, Luther did not want to create a separate church or new religion at all. He only sought to make the church better. This man was one of those people that took the Bible LITERALLY. So when the sale of indulgences arose into something that could be given out like any other merchandie just to make the rich people even more rich, Luther had had enough and posted the famous 95 theses. Luther's biggest evidence was the Bible, which he used several times to prove the pope wrong getting him into all kinds of trouble. Fortunately, with this new printing press spreading word so much quicker than before, Luther had impacted so many people by then that he escaped death plenty of times. We also have other leaders such as Calvin, Zwilingi, and King Henry VII who were not necessarily always fighting for religious reasons, but went against and made huge impacts on the political and religious aspects forming the Protestant Reformation. So in conclusion, i say that the Protestant Reformation as actually more of a religous and political event rather than an economic event based on the religious and political impacts it was created from and then had in Europe.
*My answer is in two paragraphs (which is why it is so long),but for some reason it didn't shw up as two paragraphs when i submited it.
My responses.
To JORDAN ALEXIS. I disagree with your statement because the Protestant Reformation did not just start with the sale of indulgences. As it says in the video and in one of the articles we read, the sale of indulgences were going on for a long time in the Catholic Church, but before to get an indulgence you would need to do some drastic stuff to purify yourself. This all started politically and religiously from the church's power because they changed the church, making it to their benefi rather than to follow God's word and the Bible. THEY turned the sale of indulgences into a merchandise sold with no other needs but a person's money. THEY were the cause of people going against the church by religious and political means.
To KRISTARAE. I think you should elaborate/explain more on why Martin Luther is an example of the Protestant Reformation being a religious and political event. You have a great idea, but just explain yourself better.
To AMELIAPARRA. I totally agree with you. you explained yourself well and i liked what how you showed the dfference between how the pope handled things in contrast to what Luther handled things and/or wanted things handled.
Even though the Protestant Reformation was told to be a economic event i however think that it was a more political or religious event. very few political issue more religious. the most important political causes that impacted the protestant reformation was the power of the pope. One person who did not agree with the pope was Martin Luther on the other hand did not agree how the pope would rule and how he was using the power that he had. as a result of luther going against the pope he put put out the 95 thesis which compltly went against the popes power and that's what the 95 thesis talked about going against the pope.
Also there were relegious effestc to the protestant reformation such as new relegions more outlets, and more options, such as antabaptist adn lutherin. luther stressed that the people who did not follow the pope study luteren and they should not ignore the bible always follow the bible.
akilah mentioned that she did not agree completely that the protestant reformation was completely economic and she gave great detail and i think that also tha the reformation was stritcly economic .
i agree with amelia i think also that the pope handled things poorly nad didnt do things the way they should have been done and thats why martin luther did not agree with him and went agianst him.
I agree with the belief that the Protestant Reformatin was primarily an economic event. First, the sell of indulgences were what sparked the reformation. Inudulgences were used strictly for economic gain to the church. The sell of indulgences were the church's main source of income. At first glance, on may say this was the only part of the protestant reformation that was economic. Although, the conflict about indulgences started other things to be brought up. For example, peasants began to revolt for more wealth/power. Martin Luther did not side with these peasants because he knew they were in the wrong just as much as the church was. Over 100 peasants died from this. Lastly, the conflict involving the sell of indulgences was both a small and big part of the reformation. It seemed small the way it started, and people believe that its conflict was small, but it was not. Martin Luther's 95 Theses were posted and just added fuel to the fire for many people. There were religious and political issues in the reformation, but it was primarily an economic event.
JORDAN ALEXIS: You have a good point, but you need to add some more details and information. That is like an outline, you just need to add a little bit more to it.
TMART: You said that Martin Luther did not necessarily have an impact on economics although he was against the sell of indulgences, and the indulgences were a high source of income for the church, therefore affecting the economics of the church.
Even though the Protestant Reformation is considered to be "primarily an economic event", I disagree. There are more than one reason behind this whole movement.It had an economic affect from the selling pf indulgences. But because of the lose of faith in the Catholic Church they lost a lot of their power. They didnt have a lot of say so in political matter.
It also had a religous impact due to Martin Luther. He pointed out the flaws in the Catholic Church in his 95 theses. A group ,which called themselves the Lutherns, used he views and methods as an excuse to go against authority. This also caused slit in religions. many new religions were formed after the reformation. Even though the reformation improved the Church, it was a little to late.
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