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"Liberty leading the people."
Unknown Rebel
Tianamen Square (China) 1989
Class of 2010 (1st APEH in 2008)
24 comments:
I believe that the Church didn't see immediate results. Church: Yes, we are changing our ways, come back to us! People: OKBYELUTHER. No, I believe that they are slowly building back. If you look today, yes. They did achieve the original goal. Back then however, it took a while. Protestantism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, etc. is still growing and at an alarming rate. However, the biggest countries are still primarily Catholic. So in a sense they are building up to their goal. Slowly but surely.
Hahaha, ok, I'll base my entire comment in response to DJANDY:
OK -- I disagree w/you COMPLETELY. The Catholic church didn't at ALL accomplish their goals. Think about it, man. If anything, the Catholic Reformation pissed people off even more, to the point where the "PROTEST"-ANTS completely up and left Europe, and taking their money w/them [this is known as the colonization of America]. As you said, you must look at the big picture. At that time, we aren't necessarily sure that the R.C.C. thought they were achieving their goals, but today, we can pretty much say they DIDN'T.
In order to establish whether or not they established their goals, we must first determine what their goals are, right ANDY?
So, I'm sure we can all agree that their primary goal was to bring people back, right? Well...hmm, if they left Europe in the name of their new religion, I suppose it's pretty hard to convince them that Catholicism is "the way to go," don't you think ANDY?
Next, I don't really think it's fact based your comment that said that "Protestantism, Calvinism, Lutheranism, etc. is still growing and at an alarming rate. However, the biggest countries are still primarily Catholic." If it is, I'd really like to see it.
Finally, in which ways specifically did they achieve their goals? I mean, you gave no real factual basis on how they did. If they did, i'd really like to have some examples that I could debate with as well.
Well, now that I've succeeded in shredding your answer to pieces, I'll wait patiently for another answer. =D
By the way, who is DJANDY?
hahaha...I admit, I skimmed the previous comments before I posted. I was highly amused by what I saw, so I'll have to go read all of it in a minute.
But to begin answering the question... well, their "goals" bother me. They did have some, I'll list two, but the Council of Trent...ha, well, read:
1) They wanted their old congragation back. All of it. I'm positive they were very aware of the fact that they weren't going to get everyone back. No one in their right mind could be blind to that fact. But it sure seems like a nice idea. Although it could have been one of their goals, I doubt it was high on their list.
2)More realistically is the strengthening of their remaining congregation. This they did to an extent, using the much discussed-in-class religious art and giving women "positions" of sort in the church. But continue. please...
3)This one requires a lot of textbook quotes, because it bothers me. Pages 375-379 of our textbook show that the RCC reform DID NOTHING. They were "reforming" right? They were trying to, says the Council of Trent, "curtail the selling of church offices and religious goods", for one. And then you read the following paragraph: "not a single docterinal concession was made to the Protestants" and later, page 378, "Several times during the year, special preachers arrived in the city to sell letters of indulgences". You call that reform?
Basically, there was no "reform". Things would have changed if it had been a reform. Sure, they had "goals", I mean really, they did keep a good chunk their remaining congregation, but they simply strengthened what they were already doing. Their "goals" were a load of bologna. And sadly for them, the goals they did have were not accomplished well.(Althoug I looked it up, Catholics win on the biggest religion world-wide, but that's nowdays...and you still can't convince me they accomplished their goals)
i beileve that the catholic reformation achived most of the goals they had set. there were a few that they did not accomplish. but that happens with every froup of goals that are set, some are accomplished and others arent.
i disagree with jorden, yes there were a people pissed off and goals werent accomplished but look at the amount that were. they set many goals for their group of people and about 70% or more were completed. there were many of them that were for the better, "giving women more rights" they did make some people mad like you said but also made some people happy.
i do agree with dj though. changes were not seen immediatly but after a while they were. people had to let go of what they were holding on to and see the better side. with some countries staying Lutheran the majority is still Catholic.
Okay Jordan. If they didn't completely achieve their goals then why even then were they still a big power house? They lost power when the protestants began to convert to other religions but did they not go back to power? After all, what was the major religion in the America's? And didn't the Jesuits even further the conversion of Catholics? Wait, when did the Society pf Jesus come about? Um, during the Catholic Reformation?
Also, the PURITANS got up and left Europe during the 1650's-1700ish? Is not Puritans just another branch of Protestantism? Do they not pretty much have to expand, grow, in order for a group of people to have their own name in the history book? If it was 2-3 Puritans would they not be as well-known today? Guess what though, there was not just 2-3. There were hundreds and hundreds. That's just one branch. How many more German states are going to convert? How about Dutch? Etc, etc? That seems pretty alarming.
Also aren't you completely contradicting yourself by saying in one paragraph. People are leaving the Catholic church and going with their own religion to another place and then in the next paragraph saying that it wasn't growing?
If you meant that the biggest countries were still Catholic here are some Spain, France, and Austria. Not to mention all the Spanish colonies. Also were not some of the 300 German states still Catholic?
Never once in my response did I specifically say:
Yes, they did in-fact reach their goals.
I am still focusing in that time period.
Today they did. Then, they did not.
Empires that sustain a large blow need time to recover.
That's exactly what they did.
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If you completely shredded my answer to pieces I think I did a good job in gluing them back together.
Also something quick to add:
The Puritans left England to the colonies due to Religious Persecution.
Was England Catholic?
No, I think not.
sorry Andres, but I'm trying to understand your counter-argument.
You really think Catholisism went back to being a "power house" as you call it? Sure, it was still relativly powerful compared to perhaps the Protestant religions, but the Protestant movement itself took a huge chunk out of the Church's authority.
And you can't say Jordan's contradicting himself when you did the same thing. At least, it appears to me you did. You attack his argument that people up and left Eurpoe (the Puritans, namely)...by backing it up? You tell us determinedly that Protestant churches are growing, yet the Catholic church is slowly achieving its goals. I'm sure the Catholic Church's goals were to have the Protestants growning in numbers. There's only so many people in the world. If the Protestant churches are growing, the people have to come from somewhere (and the biggest Christian faction in the US is Protestant, FYI) and what better place to come form than that "power-house" of a church.
And do you really think that their goals extend to today? If you want to talk about our day, take a look at the news. People aren't too happy with those catholic priests. Catholisism is actually DECLINING.
They haven't recovered. Don't worry.
Get better glue next time.
I am proving his statement wrong:
Reformation pissed people off even more, to the point where the "PROTEST"-ANTS completely up and left Europe, and taking their money w/them [this is known as the colonization of America].
The group that left Europe and colonized America were known as the Puritans. They left from England due to Religious Persecution.
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During this time isn't the Pope still seen as the highest power? Did the Protestant movement even touch the Pope's power? Sure, it did. But not to the point where the Pope's head is on a stick outside of Vatican City.
Yes, it did take a huge chunk out of the Church's authority but as stated before they still control major countries and cities. Yes, England is lost but England isn't as much of a threat as France is. England is growing bigger, but during this time if there was a giant Religious No Hold's Bar Steel Cage match Spain, Austria and France could probably beat England.
Once again let me clear this up. They never left because of the CATHOLIC REFORMATION as Jordan said. The Puritans were a branch fo Calvanists who wanted to 'purify' the Church of England. How is this related to the RCC Reformation? Maybe that they're just a branch of Calvanists and Calvinism came about from the Protestant Reformation. Otherwise, I see no direct connection the the RCCRFRM.
Indeed, both Church's are growing. Okay, [EXAMPLE] Pre-Protestant Reform.
Everyone is Catholic. (Example.)
After. Catholics (95%) Protestants (5%)
The Catholics numbers decline, Protestants go up, whatever.
Spaniards travel to the America's, colonize, and convert people to Catholicism. Whether they convert voluntarily or forcefully they convert. What about the many slaves that are being brought in to help run the land by working day and night? What religion are they? Most likely CATHOLIC.
The Catholic Reformation wasn't just in Europe.
Catholicism is still growing outside of Europe. Now, they many be slightly declining in Europe but they are increasing outside of it.
Besides, are we talking about the reformation just in Europe? I mean, Society of Jesus wasn't just in Europe.
Out of the major religions today 2.1 Billion are Christian (Includes Protestants, Catholics, etc.)
1.05Billion are Catholic.
64M are Lutheran.
70M are Baptists.
75M are Reformed/Presbyterian.
(http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html)
How can you not say that they didn't achieve their goals?
You cannot justify a whole religion on a few people's actions.
Are all Catholic priests rapists/molesters?
If (example) Mr. John Smith touched a girl in his fifth period class, does that make all teachers child abusers? What if he was a Math teacher, does that make all math teachers child abusers?
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I believe my glue just had to dry.
My Comments
Well…First of all, there were a few goals that the Catholic Reformation had set. For example, one of the primarily goals was trying to convert Protestants back to Catholics by reforming the disciplines within the Church. One of the actions they took was the Council of Trent. A few characteristics of the Council of Trent were that they cut down the selling of religious goods (the sale of indulgences, and the sale of positions in the church), reaffirmed the traditional Catholic teachings, and rejected Luther’s justification of faith using the 7 sacraments. They tried their best to reform the church. For example, the church instructed archbishops and bishops to live in the area where they served, assigned bishops to educate the clergy, and declared that the clergy will preach in the vernacular (everyday language). Another action that they took was the forbidden book list; they banned anything that was against the church. If anyone was caught with a book that was against the church, they would be excommunicated. I think they did a good job on trying to reform the church and going against the Protestants. However, I wouldn’t say that they achieved every single goal they set but the Council of Trent really shaped the Catholic Reformation.
My Responses
DJANDY: I agree with djandy when he said that the church didn’t see immediate results. The Protestants wouldn’t all of a sudden return to the Catholic Church when they saw the changes. It took them a really long time to get out of the Catholic Church, so they wanted to make sure that if they are converting back to Catholics this time, there wouldn’t be anything that they will be discontent about (at least the stuff that they were fighting for and against).
jordan fudge: However, I also agree with Jordan when he says, “but today, we can pretty much say they DIDN'T,” If our modern society is the result of the Catholic Reformation, I agree with Jordan because there are no laws today saying that we can’t believe in other religions besides Catholics. In addition, if we are looking at the time when the Catholic Reformation was performed, the Catholic Church did achieve its goal on reforming the church, but didn’t achieve to gain every person back to the Catholic Church. This is why we had “The Age of Religious Wars” even after the Catholic Reformation.
Daisy, the only reason why we don't have laws right now that say we have to be a certain religion is because of our free thinking and government.
Wouldn't you say that our thinking is way more free and liberal compared to those times?
I'm pretty sure they did accomplish most of their goals in today's age.
lol...what's with the glue?
i'm not going to waste anymore time arguing w/andres, I made my point, the "puritans," "protestants," whatever you want to call them, they left so they could practice their own religion w/o catholic/english influence (i believe if I'm correct, the English church's religion was ESSENTIALLY the same as was the CC's...). And I must say, Hailey's comment saying, "If you want to talk about our day, take a look at the news. People aren't too happy with those catholic priests," wow, that had me rolling -- but it's true, the catholic church just paid somewhere around 600-800M to settle some child molestation charges -- yet, Andres swears they were and still are on the up n'up.
Now for my other response, Hailey's well thought out response saying:
"2)More realistically is the strengthening of their remaining congregation. This they did to an extent, using the much discussed-in-class religious art and giving women "positions" of sort in the church."
I concur. Yes, I don't really think that the church's main focus was bringing back the one's lost. It's kind of like spilled milk, ya know? You can scoop some of it back into the carton if you devote enough time and energy to it, but essentially, what's lost is lost. Try putting the top on what's left and just stick it back in the refrigerator so you don't lose the rest
=]
here i go... =)
The catholic reformation was basically the church reemphasizing its principles,reasserting public worship, and getting back old followers. They pretty much did reemphasize its dogma-that accomplishment can be seen through the use of baroque art. Going back to public worship wasn't quite so successful because of differences between protestants and catholics As for getting back old followers id say they did well (not accomplish) on this. they obviously didnt get all of them back in one setting but they did gain more and more followers as time went on. Offering women positions of authority for example undoubtedly brought more people back to the church.
violinist4life said that there basically was no reform. there is truth to this. when you reform something your starting over again. the church most definitely didn't do this, they just stressed upon the things they already practiced.
daisycheong:nice, i get you on where you say "This is why we had “The Age of Religious Wars” even after the Catholic Reformation." this just goes back to how they didnt get back all of their followers which means there were still disputes between religions
i believe that the catholic reformation both achieved their goals and ended up giving some of them up. i believe that in pursuing their goals they may have ended up pushing people farther away from catholicism. their constant bullying and "nagging" is why people felt that they should find other religions to turn to. yet they found ways to try to make them return to catholisism. the catholic reformation may have achieved some of thier goals but in the process but they compromised a lot of what they intended to use to keep believers. they hoped that the use of art specifically baroque art might convince people to convert. also the change in womens rights as in they gave them more roles in the church is another way they hoped to achieve their goals.
responses:
daisy i agree with the statement that the reformation and the fact that they didnot achieve all goals was the reason for the religious wars. if the roman catholic church fulfilled their goals there would be no need for the wars.
i agree with anu that the catholic church did gain more followers as time moved on yet more religions were formed as well. there are so many more forms of christianity and then buddism, hinduism etc. so yes as time went on catholics increased but so did members of other religions.
The Counter-Reformation did not fully achieve its goal because it made the problem it set out to fix worse. The paintings used as propaganda was looked down upon by Protestants and the reformation of the church came up too late to make a difference. If it had started earlier, it may have had more of an effect. Although, in the long run, it will also room for tolerance between the church and the Protestant religion.
I agree with blondie pie, in that a lot of their goals were completed, but their effects were not as large as the reformists had recently thought. Thus, making the reformation less than a success.
I also agree with Jordan, because of the fact that the reformation just made some people mad. Spreading lies defaces the whole point of a reformation, and may even lead to a drop in followers.
Hey... isn't this the essay question from the test...?
Anyways, I feel that Catholic Reformation actually did pretty well in acheiving its goals. Because of the 95 Theses that Luther wrote, indulgences were banned/outlawed. This was a small step towards the complete reformation of the church, but it was the first. Also, the Council of Trent established a formal education system for priests. Priests were no longer just rich men that had no clue what they were doing. They were actually PRIESTS. Eventually the church would go back to its former glory, but not for a while.
Jordan, yeah people were still pissed off @ the church, but it was only temporary. At first the people were offended that the church could think they could change and make everything better so quickly. After a while though, most people began to see that the church really was good again. Unfortunately, this was long after the protestants left.
And Violinist4life, you claim that the church still hasn't achevived their goals. However, you dont see any indulgences being sold today. And priests, (except for the occasionaly one) are for the most part good. They know what they are doing.
I think the catholic reformation did achive there goals at some point.I also think it wasnt that good for them o achive them because while the church achived them more and more people started getting away from the church.
I agreed with abby because she said that people started to turn else where to find a religion. i also think that was true becasue if it wasnt people wouldnt go and agrreing with Luther in the 95 theis.
I also agree with Daisy becasuse they didnt quiet achive them becasue of the religious wars.
The Catholic Reformation didn’t achieve most of its goals that were set. Ignatius of Loyola was the founder of the Jesuits. He applied his lessons of religious and moral discipline in his book called Spiritual Exercises. This aspect of the Reformation helped win only some Protestants back to Catholicism. The Council of Trent was also a goal in the Catholic Reformation. The council was held to reassert the church doctrine. Council reaffirmed traditional Scholastic education of the clergy. It cut down the selling of religious goods and the selling of church offices and indulgences. Religion had declined greatly in the 16th century after the reformation. Churches were reduced by 1/3. Worships were conducted in vernacular. Fasts weren’t observed anymore as they were in the 15th century and indulgences were still being sold even after the reformation. They clergy could now marry, they paid taxes, shrines were closed down, and anyone who was found with images of saints was subjected to punishment. The Catholic Reformation set many goals but they weren’t fulfilled.
I completely agree with Daisy because the Catholic Reformation tried to reach their goals but they couldn’t. Of course not everybody followed the rules but some did. She also stated the Council of Trent shaped the Catholic Reformation.
I also agree with Anu when she stated that as time went by there were more and more people became followers. The goals that were set weren’t successful such as public worship.
i do not think the catholic reformation has achieved its goals just yet. One of the pope's goals was to punish anyone with reading material against the church but people went against that and they still read.
Also, one of their goals was to eliminate any books that included ungodliness heresy or superstitions. did they achieve this? no. people still wrote books that were "ungodly" and against the church.
Another goal was to make the big countries christians and catholics but that was not accomplished either. there are still Lutherans, protestants, etc.
i do not really agree with [pena hernandez] becuase like i said before, the catholic refomation was not very "successful". they may have set many goals, but not many of them were achieved. for example, the church lost a lot of people because of Luther and his argument with the 95 these
at the same time, i also agree with [abbybaby] when she says that people looked towards other people/things for religion. they knew the church was going the wrong way so many people looked towards Martin Luther and his 95 theses. they started to agree with luther and realized a lot of the mistakes that the church was making, for example the selling of indulgences.
I believe the catholic reformation had primarily achieved most of their goals. The main focus of the reformation was to regain their name. In other words the reformation was the answer to the growing protestant religion. To do this the church:developed the society of Jesus, looked back to humanist lifestyles(Erasmus),and achieved obedience and faith to god. Though these things had a slow start, it grew over time. The society of Jesus led by Ignatius Loyola had converted many non-Christians and Protestants. People now began to live more ethically and religiously.
In response to Jordan, i completely disagree. As he said, the protestants had been angered by the catholic reformation, so they packed up and left to the Americas. But isnt this good for the catholic church, because there is no competition. On the other hand, in the Americas, natives were already being converted by catholics. Do you know why, because the Portuguese and the Spanish stepped foot there first, and their religion was CATHOLIC. So basically the protestants are stepping into catholic territory.
Also i agree with Evan because even though the catholic church didn't achieve all their goals, they still got the point across. To this day, catholicism is the largest religion in the WORLD!!!
I believe that the Catholic Reformation achieved many of its goals. Although changes did not occur immediately they did eventually happen. The Society of Jesus ( Jesuits) created by Ignatius of Loyola contributed to this as it was the most successful Counter- Reformation group. The blending of perfect discipline, self-control, traditional spirituality and many others led to many Protestants converting back into Catholicism.
I agree with blondie pie that, as I also previously mentioned, that although changes did not happen immediately, they did at a point.
I also agree with david kim because like he said Martin Luther's 95 theses led to the banning of indulgences which did in fact help reform the church.
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